CO: Was there ever a point where you wanted to be in a band instead of hip hop?
VP: I think the division was more music or boxing. My father died in ’88 and my great uncle trained Jeff Chandler, a Philly world champion, one of the greatest ever. So I was always in the gyms. Boxing was and is so near and dear to my heart. I think if my father had not passed when he did it would have come to boxing or music. You’re a writer, you know the dedication it takes. I couldn’t do either of those things half assed. Either I dedicate myself to fighting or dedicate myself to music. I’ve been in bands, Scott Vogle from Terror is twisting my arm to start a band. I sung on a Terror record. We did a cover of Kickback from the band Breakdown and I sung on it, I didn’t rap.
I was in hardcore bands that never panned out and I was rhyming at the same time. Simultaneously I was doing the same kind of thing that Rage Against The Machine were doing after Zach left Inside Out. I went to my friends and told them I didn’t want to be in a hardcore band but I didn’t have money or really know anybody to make beats so I asked them to be my live band. We were doing the Rage thing but I was more flat out rhyming. Zack added screaming and then some “rapping” but I was flat out rhyming. We were called Under The Influence and that was like 90 or 91. That opened doors to a guy who had two turntables and a mic and a six second sampler. That’s when it really started. Finding loops and breakbeats and getting our hands dirty in the crates.
CO: That would be the time to do that. These days’ people get rich off sampling rights. Today a production team like the Bomb Squad could never exist.
VP: First off, you’re exactly right. Secondly, lets not forget how brilliant and ahead of their time those guys were. I can listen to those records now and still be like what the fuck were the Shocklees doing? What’s going on here? The other album that’s like that is the second Beasties record, the one Rick didn’t do.
CO: Paul’s Boutique? The Dust Brothers one? Absolutely my favorite record of theirs.
VP: Obviously there was a very simplistic but charming way the Beasties rhymed. They’re one of the greatest acts ever, but nobody is going to confuse them with Rakim. I remember reading an article with Marley Marl who said that Paul’s Boutique may be the greatest produced rap album ever, and that’s Marley Marl, the cornerstone of the Juice Crew and a genius in his own right. When I read that I said to myself, I always thought that but never said it out loud. Then to hear Marley say it, it validated my idea. The other thing you said is right to. If those guys made records today they’d be broke off the clearance rights.
CO: Public Enemy’s It Takes A Nation Of Millions alone would still be being paid off.
VP: That might be the best rap album ever recorded.
CO: Without a doubt. There are certain hip hop records where you could feel a shift in the music because of it. Planet Rock, White Lines, RUN DMC, Nation Of Millions, Paid In Full, Criminal Minded, 3 Feet High And Rising, Straight Out The Jungle, Straight Outta Compton, those albums. I remember when each one came out, you felt a shift coming in the music. For Tribe it wasn’t until Low End Theory, but they were one of those shifts as well.
VP: Yeah the first record was very native tongue, hippy type shot. Those records or Kool Keith and the Ultramagnetics. The production on Critical Beat Down from Paul C, rest in peace, or Sed G, who apparently produced all of Criminal Minded but didn’t get credit. On the back of the record is just says thank you Sed G.
CO: Okay, getting back to Vinnie Paz. You’re one of the busiest guys in the industry. Your official second solo album came out last year and I understand you’re working on a new Army Of Pharaoh’s album. Is that done or nearly finished?
VP: You know Howie so I’m sure you know of Ill Bill. We’re doing another Heavy Metal Kings record and I’m working on an EP right now. The Army stuff is always there but it’s like Wu Tang, you got thirteen or fourteen dudes trying to put a story together. Between the personal lives, families, people having kids, living in different cities, some producers living in other countries, you can imagine how crazy it is.
CO: I’m amazed it got done at all.
VP: Yeah, I’m amazed we have three. You know this younger generation of kids is so finnicky and they always want to know “when’s this coming out or this or that”. They live in a hyper reality. They live in Twitter and Facebook land and we didn’t grow up on that. In Philly or New York if you say something to somebody the wrong way you get punched in the face. These days somebody can call you a name or something on Twitter and get away with it.
CO: When I was on MTV I got shit from people but when I would confront them they never said anything. Everybody folds under questioning.
VP: I remember you on there and just having infinite love because I felt somebody was representing me. When we were younger we would wait two or three years for albums to drop. I got kids writing me now asking when my new album is coming out and the last one dropped last year. Forget bitching or being a tough guy, sometimes that shit just hurts your feelings. I just gave y’all twenty one songs.
CO: And 21 good songs. Anybody can put out an album with only four songs and then filler and do it every year. You put your heart and soul into something, you can’t just whip around and do it again.
VP: It’s a double edged sword for me because I should be happy people want more. Nobody’s saying go jump off the Walt Whitman Bridge. I keep comparing myself to you in that when we grew up, these artists were untouchable. I didn’t think I could ever converse with Tom Mariah or ever think to say something like ‘I hate you’ to somebody I respected in a band.
CO: The Internet has also killed searching for music. When a band I loved would come out, I’d search their thank you list to see what bands to check out.
VP: Exactly. Who is Obituary thanking and who should I know about.
At this point my three pit bulls start wrestling and knock out my network hub. Vinnie vanishes and I have to get him back.
VP: Hey man I don’t know what happened.
CO: I’ll tell you what happened. I have three pit bulls and they started wrestling and knocked out my Internet. (Vinnie laughs hysterically)
VP: The last thing you were saying was about downloading.
CO: I was just saying that most folks download the record, then expect you to hurry up and get new stuff out.
VP: That’s the best part. You steal my shit and now you want new stuff? See the difference between hip hop, punk, hardcore and metal is that in punk and metal you have to play an instrument. These kids use a computer and a four hundred dollar mic and now anybody can be a rapper so they think it’s easy.
CO: That’s true within reason. There are many bands out there that just suck. Probably just as many bad bands as awful rappers. Problem is that rappers have been lyrically garbage for so long that people are focused on the beat. If the beat and hook are cool, it sells and nobody cares what’s being said.
VP: Exactly. I wonder sometimes if these kids have listened to It Takes A Nation or Straight Out Of Compton? That’s my question. Hip Hop is the one culture that does not respect its history. In my opinion, I think it’s embarrassing that the Rolling Stones are still out there touring.
CO: Here here.
VP: But, they will sell out a stadium. Now lets go back to the beginnings of Hip Hop. The Cold Crush Brothers or Funky Four Plus One. If those guys played in New York, there would be sixty people there. If they played Philly, forty people. A rock band that’s been around since 1982 can still sell out a stadium but a Hip Hop act from ’82 might be living with their mother.
CO: True. There’s a series on YouTube about old hip hop artists and most of them have sad stories to tell or at least don’t have the money they deserve for creating this genre. It’s funny because while big bands continue to be okay, smaller bands have it worse and worse. It’s so hard to tour and where any band in the past that dropped records would have vinyl or something like that, now it’s a collectors market only.
VP: Yeah. The thing in my mind is how fast the switch happened, or maybe it wasn’t fast and I’m just getting old. It doesn’t seem that long ago that dudes like us were nerding out over the colored vinyl of a band and now I have to twist my business partners hand to even press vinyl and do it in color and have it gatefold because I’m a nerd and I think people want that. Then I think, am I out of touch.
